Trans regrets?

topic posted Fri, August 11, 2006 - 9:27 AM by  Unsubscribed
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I know that isn't really what this article is referencing, but do any trans people on here regret making the change, or know of people who do?

My current mindset makes me think it's unlikely someone would go through such an intensive process on a whim.
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  • Re: Trans regrets?

    Fri, August 11, 2006 - 11:08 AM
    There are some people who identify as trans for awhile and then stop. Some of them start transitioning and then stop. Some of them "transition back"— FTMTF and MTFTM. Some of them never transitioned medically but have to explain to family and friends that they don't identify as trans anymore. Some of them feel like it is still an important part of their history, some of them feel like it was a really bad mistake. There are probably different reasons for this for every person who has this experience.

    One problem that I see is that some members of the trans community ostracize people who are unsure or who think they want to stop transitioning or who no longer identify as trans. I think this is a problem because it means people may wait longer after they realize this about themselves, and feel more pressured to "stay trans" in order not to lose their friends and community. There's a lot of pressure to be "absolutely sure" and to "have known since infancy," and I think this pressure is wrong. Just because someone regrets, or their feelings change, doesn't mean they were following a whim.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Trans regrets?

      Fri, August 11, 2006 - 11:20 AM
      I already know this might be viewed negatively, BUT

      What do you think about someone who "identifies as trans for a while and then stops?"

      Personally, from my own experience, I know that when i was younger, I would think all sorts of things about who I was, and those things would change, sometimes over the course of months, sometimes years.

      Granted, I have limited knowledge of trans people, even less with someone who "was" trans, and now isn't, but I could see people who think they are trans, and then decide they aren't as falling into the same category of people who think they're "punk" and then the next year aren't anymore.

      Not every impulse is identity. Not every trend is identity. The gay community, at least the mainstream gay community does have this quirk, when someone first comes out, most people undergo some change in their personality, whether from the sudden acceptance of coming out in college, where there are support systems and other gays, or when they discover a gay niche somewhere.

      I can see some people becoming wrapped up in the idea of "trans" superficially, either seeing it as a solution to some problems or issues they might be having, or just having a personality that's attracted to the idea.

      I'm in no way passing judgement on this, it's just that I tend to have a pretty low opinion of human self awareness as a whole.

      As I understand trans issues, again, in a limited way, if you believe that you are a person who just happens to be in a wrong sexed body, that is something you know on a level that is impossible to ignore, a true identity issue, and I suspect it would be pretty hard to get wrong if one is paying attention, barring some traumatic event.

      I also feel it may, emphasis on MAY, before someone jumps down my throat, be similar to those people who are "gay" in college, and then "not gay" after college. I don't think sexual orientation changes. I think you can exist along a range of sexual orientations, but that range doesn't change, only your awareness of it might.

      Eh, who knows.
      • Re: Trans regrets?

        Fri, August 11, 2006 - 3:26 PM
        i've had a few, but then again, too few to mention
        • Re: Trans regrets?

          Fri, August 11, 2006 - 7:14 PM
          Well there is a lot of pressure, first against transitioning then if you waver or just don't fit the description per say you have more.
          My regret, well is not the transitioning but the damed if you do and damed if your not syndrome that seems to be biggest part of dealing with it all.
          kay
      • Re: Trans regrets?

        Fri, August 11, 2006 - 9:21 PM
        It sounds like you think being trans is a binary state, like people who don't know better think about being a man or a woman— either you're a man or you're a woman, and a slightly more advanced viewpoint is then "and also, either you're trans or you're not." But neither of these perspectives is deep enough to encompass the real world, which holds trans people who don't feel male or female, intersex people who don't feel trans, trans people who live as men/women full-time but don't transition, trans people who live as women/men part time, trans people who decide that their transness is just always going to be a private part of them, trans people who would never identify as trans, and trans people who move around among these and many other states of transness.

        This is just a hell of a lot more complicated than "being born in a wrong sexed body." There are like a million ways to be trans, to feel trans, and I'm sure as hell not passing any judgment on someone who has identified as trans for awhile but doesn't anymore. Every single day I question whether this path is still right for me, and so far the answer has always been yes— some days a resounding yes, and some days a tentative yes, and some days a tearful yes, especially when my fear is telling me that I will never be able to date as a gay man. Some people never question and some people never stop questioning, and I'm the latter. I'm open to the idea that one day the answer may be no, even though I can't forsee that happening. But I have to take every day at a time.

        I never say this kind of thing to non-trans people who aren't my therapists. Because frankly I don't need to hear any shit like "If you're not totally sure, you're not trans." Non-trans people do not need to be gatekeepers deciding who is and isn't trans, especially ones with no relevant training or experience. In order to get people to take us seriously in the gender that we identify as, we have to hit you guys over the head with it, we have to beat it into your skulls, we have to come down on every pronoun mistake, or you treat us like dilettantes anyway— "she— oh, I mean he, sorry man, dude, I didn't know you were standing there bro! you're just so pretty that I forget sometimes (isn't she cute)." Fucking hell. I get enough of that shit, it's no wonder I never, ever want to let someone non-trans know that this is more complcated than "I'm really a MAN inside and I have a phantom dick and I've known I was a boy ever since I was three days old." If it's not totally clear-cut to YOU people, I don't trust you to get it, to treat me like I want to be treated, so I can't ever let anyone see that it's less than absolutely clear-cut to me.

        So, yeah, what I need from you is for you to accept that it's simple and absolute on the outside— if someone says they are trans, they are trans. If she says she's a woman, she's a woman; if he says he's a man, he's a man. If ze says ze's an androgyne, ze's an androgyne, and you'll have to find out what that means for zir. BUT ALSO, I want you to accept that from the inside it's REALLY complicated, and that each person has their own way of dealing with all that complexity that is just how they need to deal with it. Sometimes that involves transitioning, and sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it may mean their gender changes hourly. And all that is really okay— it's part of life's amazing variation.

        When it's NOT okay is when it causes people pain and suffering— like when a butch who fantasizes about having a dick is so frequently told that she's FTM that she decides to start transitioning because her girlfriend expects it, and then realizes that she hates the changes in her body and doesn't want to lose her connection to the queer community, but now that she's seen as a regretter and people think she's neurotic at best or a traitor at worst, she's lost that community anyway. And that means, to me, that we need to support people in their questioning process and not do things that create pressure around transitioning— either pressure to transition or pressure not to. It is not the business of anyone but a well-trained therapist to help people make that decision, and the well-trained therapists ARE well-trained because they know how little "help" they should be giving.

        Do I think some people make bad decisions and transition for unhealthy reasons? Oh, hell yeah. But saying they're not really trans, or thinking less of them for not being self-aware, would be pretty arrogant. I make lots of bad decisions and do things for unhealthy reasons, and so does everyone else. But not every person who identifies as trans for awhile and then changes is being unaware or making a bad decision, and it's not within my ability or my responsibility to tell the difference.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Trans regrets?

          Sat, August 12, 2006 - 7:38 AM
          Keep in mind, I don't really think that much about it at all. I know my opinions are based on limited knowledge. All I can do is relate it to 1) myself, 2) what I see others do.

          Turning this back on you, how do you know that people are either male, female, or confused? The answer to both is, neither of us "knows".

          What if there's really only "one" way to be trans? What if it's not that complicated at all?

          It boils down to a subjective life view. Either one starts with the simplest explanation, and works forward with that, or one uses the most complex explanation, and refines as necessary.

          Assuming for the moment that you are using "you" in a general sense, and not me in particular, I'll say this, speaking for myself, I accept what someone tells me about their personal self. If someone says they are male, then they are male, if they say they are female, they are female.

          HOWEVER, the problem comes when the person is male one day, and female the next. Now if that's their identity, all well and good, but I, or anyone else, can't be faulted just because we don't use the right pronoun, or make ignorant statements. Ignorance comes from not knowing how to treat a unique situation.

          And, let's be real here, there are enough situations all of us can talk about where we know someone who flits from one "identity" to another, monthly even. I don't take those people seriously, and I think I'd have a hard time taking someone who moves from one side of the tennis court to the other.

          Are there people who don't fit the established male female paradigm? Probably. Anything is possible. Have I met any? No, so I have not had the chance to ask them questions, see them behave, or even interact socially. Do I rule out that these folks are what they say they are? Of course not.

          But I've seen many examples in the gay community of people just flat out being confused about who and even what they are. The gay community's identity is still relatively young, and quite honestly, there are a lot of gay people who's self awareness is about the same as an average 9 year old.

          "But not every person who identifies as trans for awhile and then changes is being unaware or making a bad decision, and it's not within my ability or my responsibility to tell the difference. "

          But, if they expect to be respected, it is THEIR responsiblity to present themselves fairly and honestly.
          • Re: Trans regrets?

            Sat, August 12, 2006 - 10:46 AM
            "Turning this back on you, how do you know that people are either male, female, or confused? The answer to both is, neither of us "knows". "

            Yeah, that's exactly my point.

            "What if there's really only "one" way to be trans? What if it's not that complicated at all?"

            Well, that would be an interesting little fantasyland. What if there's only one way to be gay? What if there were only "True Gay" effeminate bottoms, and everyone else was just confused? What a strange world it would be. I really like these little "what if" games too, JL; thanks for playing. But you know from experience that there's not only one way to be gay, and I know from experience that there's not only one way to be trans, so the game gets kind of old after awhile.

            While there probably are people identifying as trans for the wrong reasons, it is not up to you or me to worry about that. If someone is so fluid that their pronoun of choice changes from day to day, I would ask what their pronoun of choice is that day. If they expect me to divine that information, I would be irritated with them, just the same as I'd be irritated by someone who expects me to psychically know how they're feeling without communicating it. But I would RESPECT their identity. There's a difference between making a statement in ignorance and making a statement that lacks respect. And human respect is the default, unlike, say, respect for ability or respect for character— those things must be earned, but respect for someone's humanity, that has to be automatic.

            "But, if they expect to be respected, it is THEIR responsiblity to present themselves fairly and honestly."

            Why do you assume that someone whose trans status has changed is NOT presenting themselves fairly and honestly? Who gets to decide what representation of self is fair and honest? Obviously, the only person in any position to know if that self-representation is fair and honest— the person doing the representing. I have to assume of others that they are presenting themselves as honestly as they know how, at least with regards to their personal identity.

            JL, what business is yours if someone identified as trans for ten years and now no longer does? What business do you have judging them? Is there NOTHING you have ever changed your mind about with regards to your own person? Have you been so self-aware for your entire existence that you have never questioned anything about yourself at all? If so, I really feel for you.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Trans regrets?

              Mon, August 14, 2006 - 6:46 AM
              Kerrick, everytime we talk about this issue, you are always coming from a place where anything I say is viewed as hostile.

              If you want to simplify "gay" here's an easy way. A gay person is one who is attracted to their own gender.

              Notice that "position" and "personality traits" don't come into it.

              My point is there is usually a way to boil things down, unless of course, someone is super insecure about something and is more interested in starting a fight than in increasing the general knowledge.

              "Why do you assume that someone whose trans status has changed is NOT presenting themselves fairly and honestly?"

              Why do you assume something that I didn't say?

              "JL, what business is yours if someone identified as trans for ten years and now no longer does? "

              None whatsoever. However, since I wasn't addressing this fictional person, but rather, asking a series of open ended questions, I don't think I ever said it WAS my business. Is it yours?
              • Re: Trans regrets?

                Mon, August 14, 2006 - 10:29 AM
                Do you always ask questions and state opinions about things you don't feel are your business? ;)

                You are right about one thing— I'm reacting emotionally to your "dispassionate" argument. I have reasons for that— by exposing that I myself have doubts and questions about my trans identity, I made myself very vulnerable in a way I ordinarily wouldn't. I chose to do this in the spirit of trust that I would not then receive from you an argument about why you didn't need to respect "certain" trans people, whose identities change too much for your taste. I chose to do this trusting you to be kind and to be respectful. I have faith that your disrespect for me is a part of your rhetorical style, and not something you are really attached to personally, which means that you will be more able to change it.

                I chose to act on this faith despite my prior experience that, on each occasion when you have brought up trans issues in this space, you have positioned yourself as a person who has a right to be making certain judgments about trans people's lives. For all that you are asking questions and emphasizing your inexperience, by asserting your opinions as judgments in the way you do, you claim a right to be an authority on trans people. Your assertion says to me "I know that I do not know about you, but I have a right to say what I think about you and your kind. When you give me information, I will not accept it as information, but will argue back at you with my opinion, because my uninformed opinion is worth more to me than your real experience."

                That angers me. Non-trans people are ALWAYS viewed as the authority on trans people, from the way they make documentaries about us to the way they decide whether we are "allowed" to transition or not. I am quite justified being angry about this, because it disempowers us in a world where we are already disempowered enough. I would like you not to contribute to this dynamic. If you are able to see this dynamic in action and avoid supporting it, I would be very appreciative. If you are not able to see this dynamic yourself, if you are able to accept it when others point it out to you, that would also be very helpful.

                That doesn't mean, before you say so, that I expect you not to have an opinion, or that I wish to silence you. What I want is that you listen more openly to the trans people who respond to you, and accept that our lived experience holds weight. Give us the respect you would give a non-trans person by default. This kind of acceptance, openness, and respect does not often seem to be present in your words here. It certainly is not present when you accuse me of being insecure.

                "A gay person is one who is attracted to their own gender."
                A trans person is one who moves through their world as a different gender than that assigned them at birth.
                That still leaves a thousand ways to be trans, just as your statement leaves a thousand ways to be gay. For instance, bisexual people are included in your statement as gay, and many crossdressers are included in my definition as trans.

                "My point is there is usually a way to boil things down, unless of course, someone is super insecure about something and is more interested in starting a fight than in increasing the general knowledge."
                I quote this without further comment.

                "Why do you assume something that I didn't say?"
                Because if you were not expressing your doubt that a trans person whose identity changed could be presenting themselves fairly and honestly, why did the words "fairly and honestly" occur in your post at all? I gave you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that you were not introducing random irrelevancies in your argument, but that you had some reason for connecting people whom you do not choose to respect, whom you judge as not being fair and honest in their representation, to the subject of your post— that is, trans people whose identities are more fluid than you'd like. I'm not very good with non-linear arguments online, so in the future if you'd like to introduce a random irrelevancy, please point it out to me so I can disregard it rather than getting sidetracked by it.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Trans regrets?

                  Mon, August 14, 2006 - 11:14 AM
                  "Do you always ask questions and state opinions about things you don't feel are your business? ;) "

                  Hi, my name is Jean Luc. And yes.

                  Welcome to planet earth. All of us humans, trans or "the rest of us", make judgements about people, some informed, some uniformed.

                  This particular human wonders how on earth anything would get done if everyone pretended they never had an indelicate thought, non elightened opinion, or ignorance of any topic whatsoever. Imagine how much we could get done if all of us pretended that we knew the answer to every exotic question that ever came up.

                  Without responding to every single thing you mentioned, I'll just say that I don't think you did much "trusting" at all, but rather, you viewed my post through a lens of your own personal biases.

                  I don't respect or disrespect you, although with this latest exchange, I have to say I don't really have that much faith in your ability to contribute anything useful to this conversation.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Trans regrets?

                    Mon, August 14, 2006 - 11:17 AM
                    Then since you hold that opinion, and as I know from experience that you are very invested in your opinions, I'll take my leave of you, wishing you all the best.
                    • Re: Trans regrets?

                      Mon, August 14, 2006 - 8:50 PM
                      Kerrick
                      i so understand the vunerable feeling.
                      i feel you know it is because we question ourselves so much and even though we can articulate it well (well at least you can)it is impossible to really show the emotinal impact.
                      Jean Luc has asked a lot of abstarct question, and well i think it is good. Not necessarly how they are asked or even sometimes stated, but the fact that it does bring to the surface points that trans people or people on the whole sometimes face but internalize.
                      just my way of saying that i am trying to see the points and counter points of your descussions (debate is a better term as it reflects more of the exchange and is less of a personal attack type thing).
                      i do have a lot of respect for both of you, not because i know you personally but because you both address the issue well.
                      kay
        • Re: Trans regrets?

          Fri, August 18, 2006 - 5:04 PM
          I think people like to put people in boxes, also in this US culture there is a certian assumption of what men and women are supost to be. Even in the queer community people have boxes of what gay men, lesbian/dyke, and trans and intersex are (suppose to be like) which is total bullshit! I feel many things are ever flowing, this goes for gender and sexuality.
          I know I wrote earlier about having conserns about people changing because it is trendy and cool to be a trans person. But after reading Kerrick's response on "Fri, August 11, 2006 - 9:21 PM" I thought about what he said, and Yea I /we should surpport peoples choice/decisions(spelling?).
          Thanks for putting yourself out there Kerrick.

    • Re: Trans regrets?

      Fri, August 11, 2006 - 7:06 PM
      What Kerrick said is spot-on...there can be a real orthodoxy (coupled, often, with a bit of internal revisionism on the part of the would-be "belonger") in the "trans community". Especially support and therapy groups.

      And, if someone is businly getting schooled in the "right things to say" to their therapist in settings like that, especially given the intelligence and emotional intensity of virtually every trans person I've ever known, it can be really hard for a therapist to serve the "gatekeeper/guide" role laid out for them by the HBIGDA Standards of Care.

      Of course, some of the "regretters" are very likely going to be those who went to great lengths to short-circuit the SoC. One woman of my personal acquaintance (from some time ago) just basically WAS able to "do it on a whim" to throw a lot of money at a couple of pshrinks to write her her ketters and get her surgery, and then turned around and said it was all a mistake. Had she perhaps stuck with the SoC guidelines and a less corruptible mental health professional she might not have made that mistake.

      Many have taken me to task for it on listservs and in support groups over the years, but I think the SoC are absolutely necessary to do as much as humanly possible to prevent just exactly this kind of "mistake" when someone's head and heart are in "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" mode...ESPECIALLY if they have the financial resources to make it happen sooner.

      Lastly, you have to remember...these people are going to be very few and far between. It's not like transfolk are exactly thick on the ground to begin with, and "trans-back" folks are unlikely to even be a full percentage point of the TS population. I don't have stats, tho. If anyone does, I'd love to see them.

      Just some musings...worth roughly 2¢
    • Re: Trans regrets?

      Sun, August 13, 2006 - 8:42 PM
      I have had mix feelings about Transitioning. I have been trying to think how to word it, without it coming out as sounding trans phobic. So here it goes:
      As an outside observer, I have had some concerns about people transitioning. I have had friends that went through the transition, who are happier and healthier both mentally and physical. However, in the last 2 or 3 years or so, I have watch many people transition to the point of it being the trendy cool thing to do. I feel when any change it becomes such a large part of a population of people.
      That there is something else going on.I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this happing? I have also hear from some of my younger friend, that they do feel this pressure, that you are talking about Kerrick.
      • Re: Trans regrets?

        Mon, August 14, 2006 - 10:47 AM
        "However, in the last 2 or 3 years or so, I have watch many people transition to the point of it being the trendy cool thing to do. I feel when any change it becomes such a large part of a population of people.
        That there is something else going on.I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this happing?"

        I wonder if you are saying that because many people are transitioning, it is becoming "trendy," or that many people are transitioning because it is becoming "trendy."

        A "trend" means something that occurs increasingly over time. For example, "there is a downward trend in the economy, correlated with our involvement in the Iraq war." There is an upward trend in the number of people transitioning— I think I agree, without having seen any evidence to this effect. (Do you mean medically transitioning, or socially transitioning, or both? I'll assume both for now.) There's a difference in saying something is a "trend" and saying that something is "trendy, cool." For the latter to be true, I think there needs to be some evidence that people perceive themselves to be gaining prestige in certain circles from transitioning. While I think some few people might experience this, for many, the "rewards" of being trans are scant and are greatly mixed with the drawbacks. For instance, I saw people tell my trans friends how "brave" they were for transitioning, but I also saw that they had a hell of a time getting dates, and that even in the praise they received there was an unattractive kind of condescension.

        I think that many people who are deciding whether to transition or not have those mixed feelings you describe, Ms. I know that I certainly did, myself. I often worried if I was just being "trendy." But I think I recognized in myself an awareness that the rewards of being trendy were not worth it. I don't think I'm particularly special in that regard— you also recognize that the rewards of being "trendy" are not stable enough to support transitioning in and of themselves. Probably a lot of people recognize this. What we then have to figure out is whether there are other reasons to transition, for each of us individually, which are more stable than the rewards of being trendy. I think this is a fairly common experience, and when I worry about friends who are transitioning is when I don't see them engaging in this process.

        Does that make sense?
  • Ooops.

    Fri, August 11, 2006 - 9:23 PM
    I am SO SORRY for the lengthy essay. Shit, I need an editor...
    • Re: Ooops.

      Sun, August 13, 2006 - 8:14 PM
      JL, here's a similar article:

      A woman who came to prominence in 2003 for funding her pregnancy and birth and child's college tuition from a national lottery win has revealed to her local newspaper that she now regrets paying £21,000+ her decision.

      Michelle Parltrow, then a 52-year-old lorry driver, won £250,000 and got pregnant with the help of her husband. Although she does not regret having a baby, Melanie feels the lottery win was no blessing.

      After the birth, Melanie returned to work, but problems at home led to the break-up of her 25-year marriage. Previously her spouse had been supportive, even going shopping with her to buy maternity clothing, baby clothes, and new furniature for the baby's room. Things started to deteriorate as the lottery cash dwindled, and Melanie was eventually forced to move out alone into a rented bugalow.

      “I know I shouldn't have spent the money on a child. If I hadn't won the lottery, I wouldn't have had it done at that time,” she told the Cannock Chase Post.

      "My husband and I would still be together now - not living as parents maybe, but as man and wife. My husband, our dog and myself, would all be living together still.”

      But despite the traumas, Melanie has no regrets about giving birth itself. She summed up the situation to the Cannock Chase Post:

      "Was it worth the price? No it wasn't, but I don't think I could've lived my life any other way. I couldn't have been childless anymore. I had to do it."

      my point: why doesn't anyone ask this of people who decide to make the decision to become parents?

      I can see some people becoming wrapped up in the idea of "parenhood" superficially, either seeing it as a solution to some problems or issues they might be having, or just having a personality that's attracted to the idea.

      I'm in no way passing judgement on this, it's just that I tend to have a pretty low opinion of human self awareness as a whole.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Ooops.

        Mon, August 14, 2006 - 6:49 AM
        Thats exactly the article I saw.

        I agree. parenthood should involve higher math, a minimum financial investment, and should only be the result of 6 sessions of intercourse lasting at least one hour.

        I call this my "Super Amazon Prostitute" theory.

        Why don't people ask? Simple. Children are seen as a cheap resource and are not valued in society except as property.
        • Re: Ooops.

          Mon, August 14, 2006 - 9:44 AM
          to further point out my point... it's frustrating that people question transfolks process way more than peoples' process of having children. it's frustrating that people think we're being selfish or self absorbed more than the straight folks (or even queer folks) breeding. it's frustrating that people question the readiness and certainty of transfolks making the decision to physically transition more than the readiness and certainty of people becoming parents.

          especially because a transperson's decisions only physically affect themself.

          I'm not very eloquent at articulating this. i hope i'm able to convey this somewhat effectively.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Ooops.

            Mon, August 14, 2006 - 10:21 AM
            Do you think this is a common perception? Do you run across this often?

            Granted, I wouldn't know for sure, but I've not come across anyone (other than that one person a while back who griped about discussing trans issues on a gay forum) with that opinion.

            As for people questioning the readiness, I think a little concern, if it's honest, is warranted. This is a very invasive and life altering operation, and not something to be done lightly (for Kerrick, please note that I am not saying "All trans people do this lightly and for a laugh".)

            A trans person goes through this situation from the inside. They see their decision, the lead up to that decision, and their idea of the future. From the outside, people don't see that. They see someone, probably not even someone they've known for long, making a huge decision.

            What else can we compare it to? Nothing comes to mind with the severity of sex reassignment surgery.

            You compared it to raising a family, but that doesn't fit either. Eventually a child grows up and moves away on it's own.

            No one here has said anything negative about the decision to transition, but most of us have been in the gay community long enough to have seen people who make questionable decisions on nothing more than a whim, or the fad of the day, so the scenario is not farfetched.

            Someone who is secure in their decisions doesn't fear questions.

            A trans person's decisions in this matter ostensibly affects only themselves (ignoring for the moment the feelings of people who care about them). Does suicide only affect one person? How about picking up stakes and moving to a different country?

            A trans person whose friends don't attempt to make sure that this person has given transitioning serious thought, and isn't making the decision on a whim or in response to peer pressure doesn't have any real friends.

            Parenthood is well travelled country.
            • Re: Ooops.

              Mon, August 14, 2006 - 11:14 AM
              "As for people questioning the readiness, I think a little concern, if it's honest, is warranted. This is a very invasive and life altering operation, and not something to be done lightly"
              I agree, and see my post above to Ms. But honest concern is different from stating opinions about how fluid a person's gender identity is allowed to be before they lose the right to have that identity respected.

              I don't think Storm's analogy is watertight, but I see what he's pointing out— people tend to express honest concerns about trans people's decisions in a different way from how they express honest concern about other potentially dangerous decisions. Why does nothing come to mind that compares with sex reassignment surgery? Mainly, I propose, because people are fascinated with the surgery, and put lots of social meanings on it that it doesn't necessarily have to have. You didn't say "nothing comes to mind that compares with socially transitioning to another gender," which is what I'm more concerned with— I think that generally, if people are following the HBIGDA guidelines in a way that makes sense for them, even if they're doing it independently and being thoughtful about their own process, by the time they get to the point of surgery things should generally be pretty concrete for them. Transitioning socially generally happens first, it's a lot more of a leap of faith, and it carries the risk of permanent damage to one's career and reputation, among others.

              "No one here has said anything negative about the decision to transition, but most of us have been in the gay community long enough to have seen people who make questionable decisions on nothing more than a whim, or the fad of the day, so the scenario is not farfetched."

              What does it look like to you when people make decisions based on a whim or the fad of the day? What things tell you that's what they're doing? (Note, because it might be hard to tell after our earlier exchange— this is an honest question, not a rhetorical one.)

              From my perspective, I think that when people make the decision to transition socially based on a whim or a fad, they soon change their minds when they are treated like other trans people. The "trendiness" of being a trans man (and trans women are not subject to this, IMO) is based on a kind of glamor and queer cred that is illusionary, that isn't actually a part of most trans people's lived experience. I know I haven't gotten anything worthwhile out of "being trendy." I think when people see this, they are often placed in the position of having to re-evaluate their reasons for transitioning socially. Since that's how I "know" that people are "doing it to be trendy" (and I'd rather not make value judgments about this; see my reason below), I don't have any way of knowing right off the bat and I have to treat them just as I would any other trans person until such time as they change their minds.

              I don't want to make value judgments about people "doing it to be trendy" because I don't want to add to the pressure that people feel NOT to change their minds until later in the process.
          • Re: Ooops.

            Mon, August 14, 2006 - 12:51 PM
            I would say people who are thinking about having kid, do get questioned
            • Re: Ooops.

              Mon, August 14, 2006 - 1:45 PM
              common responses that are positive to pregnancy some by family/friends, some by strangers, some by both...
              1. wow congratulations!
              2. is there going to be a baby shower?
              3. do you have a name?
              4. how do you feel?
              5. do you need anything?
              6. i'm so happy for you!

              i do believe that there are many parallels to transitioning and having children in this day and age. i'm not saying that these things are done for the same reasons, but i'm saying they often mean similar things.

              lifetime comittment (your life will never be the same), change in how people perceive you, change in body and hormones, it's a very personal decision, the unknown. the big difference is that the world really supports bearing children and doesn't really support transitioning. families and communities often automatically support you when you're having a child. even if the child is an "accident" and you may not be "ready" for it.

              as for transitioning, everyone suddenly things that it's about them and not the person who is transitioning. instead of asking how they can be supportive or congratulating them, they often question the person's mental stability, or the reason's for doing it. and when it comes to family, how it will reflect on them. (kinda like coming out as gay except we now have our gay and lesbian community questioning us as well).

              the questions are often under the guise of concern, but i can't help but think they're really about judgement.

              sure, people get questioned for having kids, but not as often and not as a rule.

              i'm not saying that all people who transition are clear about what they're doing and why. my point is that transpeople are under a lot of scrutiny and it gets tiring.

              please consider this for a few minutes before you respond.
              thanks.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Ooops.

                Mon, August 14, 2006 - 1:51 PM
                I don't think the two scenarios are all that similar myself, but leaving that for the moment, I suspect that the people who make it about them rather than the trans person are probably like that about everything.

                Not to mention, that by the time it's time for the surgery, the trans person would have already gone through some of the other steps, such as living as the gender they will be reassigned surgically to.

                Now personally, if I knew someone for a year who was living as a particular gender, I don't think I'd be very surprised if that person tells me they are going through with the rest of it.

                Thinking back, I started this thread more to see if people knew anyone who made it through all the steps involved, and then, after surgery, decided they had made a mistake, as a way of evaluating the steps involved.
  • Re: Trans regrets?

    Tue, August 15, 2006 - 6:50 AM
    has anyone seen "boy i am," the doc film by sam feder & julie hollar? the film follows the lives of 3 trans-men in nyc over the last few years with commentary from community, theorists, partners, etc. it starts a dialogue about trans-visibility. i participated in the interview process, as a femme dyke voice. it was such an education b/c through the process of interviewing & follow-up & then seeing the film (premiered at nyc's newfest & screened at frameline & outfest), i realized how short-sighted i was. additionally, one of my dearest friends is transitioning and standing by him through his process has definitely opened up whatever tunnel-vision i had left.

    considering they queer community already is marginalized in a lot of ways, you'd think we'd be the 1st group to support "difference." people (myself included), have a propensity to internalize things they don't understand, things that challenge the way they believe the world should operate. i could say we're only human but ultimately, i think the bottom line - which sort of ties in to what you were all saying about the questioning - is that as a community, we should stop all the questioning as though a person's individual life choice is about us and support the individual as part of the community, period. does any of that make sense?
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Trans regrets?

      Tue, August 15, 2006 - 7:29 AM
      "we should stop all the questioning as though a person's individual life choice is about us and support the individual as part of the community, period. "

      Who decides whether questioning is well meaning and legitimate or if it's "about us"?

      1. A friend of yours is a drug user wants to use coke morning, noon and night.

      2. A child wants to eat candy every night for dinner. The parent says no.

      3. A friend of yours wants to go out with this person who you KNOW will abuse them.

      4. A friend of yours reacts badly to the ending of their relationship, and decides they want to sever all ties with their friends and family.

      5. A friend of yours decides to quit their job, sell their belongings, and move to a commune.

      6. A friend of yours decides they want to quit their well paying career and become a mime in the park.

      7. A friend of yours who's never been close to their parents decides not to go to the funeral of their parents.

      None of these things are really any of our business. Are you saying you would support all their decisions because it's really not "about us?"
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Trans regrets?

        Tue, August 15, 2006 - 7:30 AM
        And, while I assume everyone is smart enough to realize this, I have not, implicitly or explicitly, stated that I consider any of these examples analogous to the decision to change gender.
      • Re: Trans regrets?

        Tue, August 15, 2006 - 7:58 AM
        i hear what you're saying. salient points.

        ok, some truth from where i sit: i admittedly get very concerned when teenagers & even early 20-somethings choose to change gender. my mind basically reels at the thought of irrevocably changing one's body before they've even fully grown into it. heaven knows i didn't know sh*t about anything in my 20's & now in my 30's i finally REALIZE i don't know sh*t.

        and what about therapy? you know, is anyone taking the time to investigate & be sure about their decisions? i also experience trepidation about whether or not this is "trendy" and people are jumping on a trans-banwagon b/c all their friends prostelytizing some religion of trans. i worry that there's a lot of "down with butch" rhetoric out there, that it's not ok to be a butch dyke anymore (hello, my butch dating pool is dwindling!), that it's not ok to be a woman or a lesbian. but these are MY issues, you know?

        all that said, regardless of how any one of us feels, don't you think that it's still that one person's choice to fully realize himself? i mean, i certainly don't know what it's like to be trans, any more than i know what it's like to be butch, you know? i have zero idea what it feels like to know that my dna screwed me over & trapped me in a body that wasn't meant for me & who i am. who am i to judge?

        so... now what?
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Trans regrets?

          Tue, August 15, 2006 - 8:14 AM
          Whether or not I realize it's one person's decision is irrelevant, everyone has to accept that nothing you or I say is going to make a difference. If someone wants to do this, they're going to do it, whether it's the right or wrong decision for them.

          However, I choose to question everything. If it's public, then I can question anything I want.

          I think sometimes people are hypersensitive about being "judged". Sometimes, a question is just a question, and a concern is just a concern. Everyone is so afraid of being "judged" that they end up being the ones passing judgement on everyone else.

          If anyone would listen, i'd tell them to get over the fear of being judged. Everyone does it. EVERYONE. The only ones that stay they don't judge anyone are liars.

          Actions are harmful, not opinions.

          Now what? I don't know. Want to get lunch?
          • Re: Trans regrets?

            Tue, August 15, 2006 - 8:26 AM
            ha! ok, what you're saying totally makes sense.

            i think for me it's hard to draw the line between concern (even for people i don't even know, which is sort of lame & seriously not my business, right?), questioning &/or judgment and just living & letting live. ok & supporting members of the community. i feel VERY strongly about community, whether i agree with my people or not, you feel me?

            a great queer lunch? let's invite all the locals!
  • Re: Trans regrets?

    Sun, October 1, 2006 - 6:32 PM
    wow, thats a lot of rants. I have this to say: dont judge. youre not them, no one can be more in your head than you, you are the only professional that CAN judge whats right for you and the rest of us, no matter how much we might want to help ( or hurt) others we can never know more than the individual asking the question about what theyre goin through. so let it be, accept them for who/what they are, if theyre confused, then THATS what they are, just confused, if theyre certain, cool, than TAHTS what they are. hell, ive been straight male all my life and im fucking confused every day! i never know what the fuck life is gonna throw my way, and yeah, folks like to put things into boxes, (things, people, ideas, morals, blah blah blah, its all fuckin dogma, and not worth a fuck anyway) but its USUALLY only to be able to understand, its when its LIMITED to that little box, and isnt given room to grow that it becomes dogmatic. As if ANYONE could ever perfectly define another human being, hell, i thought that was the very DEFINITION of being human, that we change, we grow, we're never the same two days runnin.SO to sum up, my ( just mine, im not puttin this on anyone, just my little personal take on life in general) motto is/has been this: take it one day at a time, never beleive youre the expert, and never believe that you know better than the other guy/girl/tran/inter etc etc etc.cuz life will throw you every time.
    peace all, hugs.

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