Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

topic posted Thu, December 27, 2007 - 7:25 PM by  Schirin
I'm watching this program right now. Really helps me to understand transgenders. If you care to see it it's on again at 11pm this evening.
posted by:
Schirin
Los Angeles
  • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

    Thu, December 27, 2007 - 11:17 PM
    There a few things that bothered me from what I read. In general my experience and what I have observed in others is that transitioning isn't something that has a defined ending. I mean is it over when you have surgery, come out to everyone, change your ID, is it over when more people use the proper pronoun towards you? Also I don't think most people feel born in the wrong body. I mean my body has features which disgust me, it's continued to develop traits that bother me but it is MY body. There are things I have changed, plan to change, and will never change about my body. I don't remember ever wanting to play with barbies, but I do remember getting in trouble for making/wearing a skirt. I seem to remember enjoying playing in the woods, though not necessarily enjoying the male company. I've been told I ewed girls like most boys do, but I don't ever remember identifying with other boys. It seems like every study, every movie, every doctor excludes stories which aren't as cut an dry. I'm sure there are many people who feel the way they do, I just wish they would give equal coverage other less sensational stories which more accurately describe us as diverse group.
    • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

      Fri, December 28, 2007 - 12:38 AM
      Well, good points there. I'm sure that there are as wide a variety of transgenders as there are bi's, as there are lesbians, etc. etc. I think any show would naturally play upon those they feel make for "good tv," you're right.
      • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

        Fri, December 28, 2007 - 7:42 AM
        Bear with me here folks, occasionallly I say things that people jump all over without thinking about it first.

        I do believe there is a spectrum of sexual orientation. I also believe there is a spectrum of gender identity.

        But is it possible that some people are so obsessed THEMSELVES with nailing down their gender identity, that they are unsatisfied with all of them?
        • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

          Fri, December 28, 2007 - 8:26 AM
          Hi Jean, how are you?

          "But is it possible that some people are so obsessed Themselves with nailing down their gender identity, that they are unsatisfied with all of them?"

          Hmmm, obsessed Themselves with nailing down their gender identity... hmmm.. Self-obsession only happens when there is no one to chat with and when others are so.... standoffish..... as to not to get to know the person that is only giving a thought or two, as it applies to them through their own personal experiences.

          Questions were asked and I thought I would try to give my point of view. Now since there are a billion points of view, why am I tapped on the shoulder because I expressed mine? And since I really don't understand what "unsatisfed with all of them" means, I will have to take into account that if you don't know about me, or where I started on the gender spectrum, then its understandable for the comment.

          Peace,

          Sebastian
          • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

            Fri, December 28, 2007 - 8:29 AM
            Recovering from overeating. You?

            "Self-obsession only happens when there is no one to chat with and when others are so.... standoffish..... as to not to get to know the person that is only giving a thought or two, as it applies to them through their own personal experiences. "

            Oh no. Self obsession doesn't need a lack of people to talk to. in fact, I've seen it increase when people talk to everyone and anyone about their personal issues.

            Self obsession is a mental state, and doesn't require external help.

            I don't recall tapping you on the shoulder. I just replied to an available post to address something I've seen in many posts, the concept that gender identity is to restrictive for some, and that they don't feel they fit into any available gender identities.

            It's always a good idea, if I'm not specifically addressing someone by name, to assume I'm speaking in general terms.
        • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

          Fri, December 28, 2007 - 8:31 AM
          Seb, just because a post follows yours, doesn't mean it's responding to you. After checking, I noticed I was actually "replying" to Schirin, although I wasn't particularly addressing Schi either.
        • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

          Fri, December 28, 2007 - 9:52 AM
          I know I must have seemed a bit whining there, but there are some good non-selfish reasons for what I said. Firstly there is a history in the medical community of labeling people as "true" transsexuals, and denying treatment to all others. This leads people to lie to their physicians, seek treatment on their own, kill themselves, etc. These stereotypes of what a real transsexual is are all over the place in movies, television, magazines, flawed medical studies, etc. Secondly my reaction was to the comment "this program really helps me to understand transgenders", because the news/media is about the worst source for anything but the weather. It may help you, but it's not all there is, there are more resources you should draw on if you care to know more.

          Sure, I've known a few of those people in my life like that though I would describe it more as a period of self-discovery. I'd image its similar to people who have "experimented" or "couldn't make up their mind" about being gay or straight. The people I've know have eventually nailed it down, as much as a person can of course.
    • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

      Fri, December 28, 2007 - 5:14 AM
      Hi Diane,

      Even though I didn't see Born in the Wrong Body, that's how I feel myself.

      "I don't think most people feel born in the wrong body" I don't mean to be confrontational, but have you asked every transgender that you possibly may know or don't know what they think about the issue?

      Transitioning is a very long process, and no it doesn't just stop and coming out to everyone having the correct pronouns use at me, changing every piece of identification that keeps me safe. The gender spectrum is very large and very fluid. Not every transgender feels the need to surgically alter their body. For myself, I choose to have my breasts reduced to pecks and have my feminine organs removed, to come to an absolute full circle. As you can see in my picture, the testosterone shots have begun to do their job. I identify very strongly to the male gender, without all of the stereotypical trappings that guys have to endure, ie. being loud, being hairy, being sloppy, driving only stick shifts, instead of automatics, having mechanical abilities, all of those, in my book, are some stereotypes that don't apply to me.

      While I can be loud when I'm angry or when it's appropriate, because I'm on testosterone, yeah, I'm hairy, but I was hairy, pre-transition, I prefer to drive an automatic, that's less moving I have to do, and not to mention, it allows me to keep my hands out of my partners, or potential partner's lap, lol! And, I was mechanically inclined, pretransition, and I still am mechanically inclined. So, what does that say about gender myths?

      Everyone is entitled to treat their body the way that they feel is appropriate, I mean, unless someone puts a gun to your head, then what's the deal? Doctor's (both medical and otherwise) are finding out a lot of things about gender issues. So, while I reside in this feminine body, and I still go through the danged monthly changes, until I correct that, it's not traumatizing, but it's my body and I'm happy with it.

      Thanks,

      Sebastian
      • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

        Fri, December 28, 2007 - 10:04 AM
        Hi

        The few others I have met have not felt that way. You have a good point though, I only know a small group of people in the community, I suppose "many" would have been more appropriate then "most" and it would be wrong of me to push one perception over the other.
      • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

        Fri, December 28, 2007 - 10:41 AM

        I'm finding the usage of the word "transgender" odd in this thread. For example, "have you asked every transgender". I would have always said "have you asked every transgender person" or perhaps "have you asked every transgendered person".

        Is this an accepted usage now? It feels so depersonalizing to me, somehow.

        • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

          Fri, December 28, 2007 - 11:41 AM
          I can't see how that is harmful. No one says, have you asked every bisexual person...they say have you asked every bisexual? Same thing.
          • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

            Fri, December 28, 2007 - 6:52 PM
            To me it sounds wrong, for no reason more then it just sounds like an incomplete sentence.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

              Sun, January 6, 2008 - 2:55 PM
              it's depersonalizing. It makes me feel like I'm just an anonymous person in a demographic group. I'm not a "transgender", I'm a person who is white, spiritual, dyke, loves BDSM, geek, business owner and entrepeneur, dog lover, reader, someone who cooks and who snowboards. I also happen to have been born male but live as a woman. That doesn't make me a "transgender". And it also is grammatically incorrect. It's not a noun, it's an adjective.

              I also hate when people use that for gays, blacks, whites etc... We're talking about people, the least we can do is recognize that it is only part of who they are and not all of it. :)
              • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

                Mon, January 7, 2008 - 9:25 AM
                "I also hate when people use that for gays, blacks, whites etc... We're talking about people, the least we can do is recognize that it is only part of who they are and not all of it. :) "

                If I know what "that" you're referring to, yes, if someone is saying "all gays ..." or "all trans people...." that's depersonalizing.

                But come on, every single person generalizes. So yes, it might be imprecise, but there are benefits. Try seeing how much you can accomplish by presenting yourself, not as lesbian, but as a standalone single person interest group of "white, spiritual, dyke, loves BDSM, geek, business owner and entrepeneur, dog lover, reader, someone who cooks and who snowboards."

                Humans flock. It's evidence of our animal upbringings. We also save mental space by learning to extrapolate, which is why we generalize. In a way, it's charming, to focus on the idea that there are things that tie us together.

                And yes yes yes, you flock of kill joys, I know that a lot of people lump "us" together for negative things. Let's assume I wish them gigantic hemorrhoids and glass dusted toilet paper for the new year.

                PS Mercedes.

                CATS RULE.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

                  Mon, January 7, 2008 - 10:34 AM
                  I definitely get what you're saying Jean Luc. In particular it's the use of the word "transgenders". Perhaps it's mostly because it's just not grammatically correct and I'm slightly OCD. But it's an adjective. And using it as an adjective... I can see benefits. Transgendered people (or trans people for less syllables) doesn't rile me as much. My personal identification may be more dtailed but I get that is is an accurate descriptor of my experiences. But I also recognize there's a lot worse words that could be used about me. :)

                  And yes, my cat agrees with you.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

                    Tue, January 8, 2008 - 7:54 AM
                    Ah, I get you. I feel similarly about "queers".

                    My gripe, and it's a mild one really, is that over detailing oneself can get a bit masturbatory. What's really important, our similarities or our differences?

                    For me, it's the former, which is why I absolutely support the whole alphabet LGBTQI being a unified umbrella. Not just for practical numbers reasons, but because geezus christmas, have you ever been to a bar where there are JUST lesbians, or JUST gay men? BORING.

                    I prefer to learn from medieval china's mistake and open my borders to new exp... oh stop your laughing, you know what I mean.
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

                      Tue, January 8, 2008 - 9:23 AM
                      *nods* It's one of the reasons I tend not to go to women's only events, because I like the mixed energy. Being quite queer, I like mixed, queer energy full of vibrancy and diversity. I learn a lot from everyone. It's sad though how much I still have to educate regarding trans in those groups, though less so in SF than in other parts of the country.
                      • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

                        Tue, January 8, 2008 - 10:19 AM
                        that gives me a mildly brilliant idea.
                        • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

                          Tue, January 8, 2008 - 10:23 AM
                          Which I won't share. Cause in retrospect it isn't very brilliant.

                          Anyway, as a trans person, anyone, what are some of the things people ask you that you wish they wouldn't, and what are some of the things you wish you could make clear to other people?
                          • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

                            Tue, January 8, 2008 - 3:10 PM

                            Hi Jean and great question. Sometimes, when people are brave enough and non-confrontational enough, they usually ask me why do I feel as though I'm a guy, and do I think I'm going through a phase, do I plan on having "The surgury"? Oh and the prize winner, in my book, why don't you leave your feminine name alone? (I'm not going to reveal my feminine name, so please don't ask.) ; ) Or, why don't you make you male name as close sounding as the alphabet letter of your real first name?

                            Sometimes I really do get tired of all of the questions, sometimes I feel like firing them back to the very people that fire them my way.

                            Thanks,

                            Sebastian
                          • Unsu...
                             

                            Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

                            Tue, January 8, 2008 - 4:04 PM
                            Well,

                            1) you can be transgendered and gay, straight or bi. I hate when people assume I will date men because I transitioned to be a woman. I really get annoyed with that one. I'm a dyke, and I even like to butch up sometimes. I look great in a three piece suit. :)
                            2) The follow-up to 1. Well if you like women, isn't transition counter-productive? Couldn't you just stay a man? Argh. Being a woman who dates women is not the same as being a man who dates women.
                            3) Don't ask me about my genitalia unless you plan on getting up close and personal with me. I hate when people think they can ask about such personal details of your life in a casual conversation.

                            Thanks for asking Jean Luc.
        • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

          Fri, December 28, 2007 - 1:42 PM
          Transgender is just an umbrella term. It covers: male to females, females to males, crossdressers and intersexed persons. That word was used to cover the entire community. Since the name of this tribe is gay lesbian bisexual and trans.

          But, for purposes of lableing, which I think labels belong on cans of vegatables. I'm a person that lives in a feminine body, but feels male identified. To avoid typing all of that I just say that I'm a female to male transexual. But, on the whole, my name is Sebastian.

          Unless, I'm told different, I would address them as the gender that they are presenting. Even thought I think it would be depersonalizing to me also, if I was just identified as a transexual, instead of being addressed by my name or "Sir" or "Mr" I would prefer to be addressed by my name.

          Thanks,

          Sebastian
  • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

    Fri, December 28, 2007 - 10:04 AM
    Out of curiousity, how many transgenders are in this group? So far, I've "met" 2 here in this thread.
    • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

      Sun, January 6, 2008 - 10:38 PM
      After reading this thread, I had 2 reply.
      I did not have the pleasure 2 watch the program on TV but can Tivo it if I really wanted 2 but I'll just speak from my perspsective.
      I am transgendered, or rather put more succintly, a "gender variant", meaning I live as a feminine andro genetic male but dress and live primarily feminine/woman. I love my male genitalia, am on a "lite" course of 'mones so have tiny titties, and don't want 2 go full-throttle and cross the gender binary in2 total woman. I have 2 spirits that live in me in harmony and balance.
      (See, it's easier 2 just say trans, which I agree with Sebastian is an umbrella term...)
      When it comes 2 self identity it is just that: SELF identity. I understand how there are some tg's who want 2 go complete and yes there r some who don't. It is how we choose 2 identify ourselves that matters first and foremost and everything stems from there....
      -Mahogany
      ps Shirin I'm the 3rd tg u've "met" here. Hi!
    • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

      Wed, January 9, 2008 - 1:56 AM
      "Hi, I'm Avi and I'm a transguy" (insert applause here) ;-)
      Born in the wrong body is a simplification for most trans and gender variant folk because it presupposes that there are only two kinds of bodies to be born into. From a biological standpoint alone, ask intersex people and they will tell you a different story altogether.
      Cheers.
  • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

    Fri, January 11, 2008 - 1:47 PM
    To all the trans folk here, welcome and hello if we've never met. I personally feel that people are people, and whether trans or gay or straight or bi, we should be tolerant that we have no idea what it is like to live in someone else's head. I have always tried to make trans folk feel welcome, or any kind of folk for that matter. I've not had the pleasure of having a trans friend before, but when I used to party a lot I went to this afterhours club a lot on Sunday mornings and there were some M2F folk there that always traveled together and never mingled with anyone else. I always felt some sadness for them that they felt that they couldn't make friends outside of their little group. I didn't want them to feel outcasts. After all, we were ALL a bunch of wacky people. I no longer party like that (thank goodness I survived it!) so I no longer find them as a matter of course here in LA, but should I ever I will be sure to never offend with the wrong questions but just love them, as we're all supposed to love one another and never judge. Thank you to all the trans folk in this group who can open up the eyes of other people to educate, to create tolerance. Best wishes to you all for your travels down a unique and probably difficult road in life!
    • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

      Fri, January 11, 2008 - 3:03 PM
      Disclaimer: These are my feelings, they are not to be taken personal and please don't take offense to what I'm about to say.
      Hello there Schirin,

      Transitioning from being a lesbian to being a man is not an easy thing. While with some people of the gay community understands that I must be myself, no matter what, there are some still that remain unelightened, either by choice, or they choose to remain ignorant.

      While I cannot speak for my male to female sisters, I can speak only for me. I don't feel comfortable going around other lesbians, and just being myself, because, I'm a man now. It seems to me, that when you (not meaning you personally) are a part of the in-crowd, you have a tendency to forget what's it like being on the outside looking in, that's mainly because you are now a part of the status quo. Whereas before, you were on the outside looking in.

      I'm just very honest, and sometimes it gets me in trouble, if you want to be friends, fine. But, if you don't, then peace.

      Sebastian
      • Re: Born in the Wrong Body on MSNBC

        Sun, January 13, 2008 - 1:24 PM
        Sebastian, there was nothing to take offense at in what you said. I have assisted many from being on the outside to coming in to the inside of whatever group I happen to be involved in. It's really enjoyable to watch that person open up like a flower and have more confidence; I get a kick out of it.

        Of course, friends.

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